Visual Thinking… And Why CEOs Should Care About It — with guest Todd Cherches

Chris Curran: Growth Igniters Radio with Pam Harper and Scott Harper, Episode 178: Visual Thinking… and Why CEOs Should Care About It. This episode is brought to you by Business Advancement Inc., enabling successful leaders and companies to accelerate to their next level of growth. On the web at businessadvance.com.

And now, here’s Pam and Scott.

Pam Harper: Thanks, Chris. I’m Pam Harper, Founding Partner and CEO of Business Advancement Inc., and sitting right across from me as always is my business partner and husband, Scott Harper. Hi, Scott.

Scott Harper: Hi, Pam. It’s a pleasure to join you again for another episode of Growth Igniters Radio, and as always, our purpose is to spark new insights, inspiration, and immediately useful ideas for visionary leaders to accelerate themselves — and their companies — to their next level of game-changing innovation, transformation, and growth.

Now, Pam, as we often say, one of the toughest parts of being a CEO is engaging the wide variety of stakeholders we care about to develop a shared vision that has real meaning to each and every one of them. And this is even more important than ever, as we’re seeing more leadership teams dramatically re-envisioning their company’s direction beyond the crisis, and doing that virtually.

Pam Harper: That’s right. What we do know is that the bolder the vision, the greater the likelihood of pushback from people who either don’t understand or who disagree with the direction. In fact, we’ve come to call this the Visionary’s Paradox.

Scott Harper: So that’s why it’s critical to have as many ways as possible to create a shared understanding and commitment to the vision so that everyone can collectively bring it to life.

Pam Harper: And that’s why we’re very glad that our guest today is an expert on the power of visual thinking. He is Todd Cherches, CEO and co-founder of BigBlueGumball, a New York City-based consulting firm specializing in leadership development, public speaking, and executive coaching.

Here’s a bit more about Todd. He’s a three-time award-winning adjunct assistant professor of leadership at the New York University School of Professional Studies, in the division of programs and business, where he has been teaching his popular leadership and team-building graduate course in their human capital management master’s program for the last 10 years. He’s also a lecturer on leadership in various graduate programs at Columbia University, as well as a TEDx speaker. His talk is called “The Power of Visual Thinking.” He’s also the author of the brand new book, VisuaLeadership: Leveraging the Power of Visual Thinking in Leadership and in Life, which was just published in May by Post Hill Press, Simon & Schuster. To learn more about Todd Cherches, go to growthignitersradio.com, episode 178, and scroll down to his bio.

Pam Harper: Todd, welcome to Growth Igniters Radio.

Todd Cherches: Thank you, Pam. Thank you, Scott. It’s great to be with both of you.

Pam Harper: Tell us a little bit about how you came to write your book.

Todd Cherches: Sure. As you saw in my TED talk, when people would say, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” I wanted to be Superman. I’d take all my mother’s dish towels, strap them on, and fly around the apartment. I wanted to be Superman. And as we talk about in our careers, we should always have a backup plan. My backup plan was to be Batman. So those were my career aspirations as a kid. Really because I love television. I grew up a baby boomer, a child of the ’60s and ’70s, obsessed with television and superheroes.

Todd Cherches: So here’s what’s interesting — someone recently said, “As an executive coach, in some ways, you are Superman and Batman. You have, instead of x-ray vision, you have the power of visual thinking as your superpower. And then Batman — you have a utility belt of coaching tools, tips, and techniques to help people be more successful.” So, I took that as a compliment, that I had finally realized that vision all these years later.

Todd Cherches: So, the roots of my book and my career go back to the early days of having some of the worst bosses who’ve ever set foot on this planet.

Pam Harper: Oh, no.

Todd Cherches: So yeah, unfortunately… I should say fortunately, because my book, if you see the dedication, it’s dedicated first to my wife, secondly, to my parents, and thirdly, to all of the horrible bosses who taught me more about management and leadership than I ever wanted to know. So, they did impact me in that way.

Todd Cherches: So I worked in advertising for a year after I got my master’s degree in communication from the State University of New York at Albany. I then moved out to LA and did a number of temp jobs, internships, part-time jobs; I even worked as a bouncer in a nightclub at night until I got punched in the face one night and got my glasses broken, and that ended my bouncing career.

Todd Cherches: But as I floundered around the entertainment industry in a number of jobs, I always had bad bosses. I got into it because of the creativity and the excitement and the glamor of Hollywood. But in a lot of that business, the values are based on ego, control, power, and money. It really wasn’t consistent with my vision of the creativity that I thought it would be. I did that for a number of years, and then I moved back to New York after 10 years in LA. I got a job with one of the country’s leading training companies. And in the process of being given the responsibility of revamping their mini MBA program, I started reading one business book after another, until I got obsessed with them. Because I realized that had to be a better way of managing and leading people than the way I had been managed and led for the first 10 years of my career.

Todd Cherches: I became a business book addict, and I would average two or three a week, and some, I actually read as many as five or 10. And I continued that habit from 1998 through 2018. So for over 20 years, I read an average of one a week. I passed the thousand bookmark a few years ago and then, after reading all those books, people started saying to me, “When are you going to write your own book?” Because I always had my own quotes and stories and models. And then, so after years of formulating my own content, I finally said, it’s time for me to write my book.

Scott Harper: Okay. So your book is called VisuaLeadership. for our listeners, what is visual leadership, and why should CEOs and other leaders care about it?

Todd Cherches: Sure. The word VisuaLeadership, as I spell it on the book cover, it’s actually a single word with a single L, a capital L. And I actually got the registered service Mark. The patent office rejected the twice, but the third time was a charm. And the word represents, as the name implies, that you can’t separate leadership from vision or vision from leadership.

We always talk about, for leaders, what is your vision? What do we mean by that? We’re talking about what is the picture that you carry around in your mind’s eye of an idealized future state that’s different from and better than the current reality? So what is that picture that you have of the future?

Todd Cherches: And then the second part of it is how are you going to get that vision out of your head and into other people’s heads so that they can see what you’re saying? So that’s one of my mantras from a VisuaLeadership perspective, is how do you get people to see what you’re saying? And we talk about visionary leaders. Those are the people who have that picture and change the world.

Todd Cherches: You just talked about getting the buy-in of stakeholders, having a shared vision, re-envisioning. We need to, especially now in the age of COVID and everything going on in the world, we need to re-envision what our strategy is, where we’re headed. No one knows. We live in this VUCA world, if you’ve heard that terminology. So it’s more hyper-VUCA than ever — it’s volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. And we need to figure out what the future holds, and we can’t do that on our own. So we need to engage people in the process. And like you said, the visionary’s paradox is that we have a vision that’s crystal clear in our mind, but how do we get that into the minds of others? And that’s where VisuaLeadership really comes in handy.

Pam Harper: It brings it to life. Let’s look at it in a different way. What is special about using visual thinking? VisuaLeadership is visual thinking and visual communication, as opposed to just communicating, say, through words and numbers.

Todd Cherches: Yeah. If you think about it, from the very early days of our schooling, we talk about the three Rs — reading, writing, arithmetic. We tend to absorb information through reading. We write things down through texts, and we come up with arithmetic or data, numbers to support our position. So CEOs and business people tend to think in terms of words and numbers, but there’s a new literacy, a visual literacy, basically, is using pictures and visual language to get our ideas across and to get other people to see what we’re saying, in a way that’s more effective than words and numbers alone. And the science backs this up.

Todd Cherches: I talk about it in three words, and they rhyme. Attention, comprehension, and retention. So when you use visual imagery or language, it captures people’s attention because it gets them to focus. So if I’m showing you something visually, you’re not going to be looking at your phone, you’re not going to be distracted by other things, hopefully. So we have your attention. Secondly, comprehension, if I show you something visually, let’s say a map or a diagram or my company’s org chart, you’ll understand it because you’re absorbing it visually. And retention, the science shows that we just, in terms of memory and recall, visuals triumph over all the other senses. I’m not going to get into all the brain science, because there are people who are far more skilled in that than I am.

Pam Harper: We’ll dig deeper in that, in the next segment.

Todd Cherches: Yeah, there’s a whole field, the neuroscience of leadership. But basically, there’s two theories I just want to mention, just very simply. One is the picture superiority effect, which has proven that when you have pictures and texts, pictures are superior to text, in terms of understanding and recall.

Todd Cherches: And the other one is called dual coding theory, which means that when you access both the left and the right side of your brain, you’re double encoding the information. So again, it solidifies it, in terms of your understanding and in terms of your memory. So those are just a little science behind the magic of visual thinking.

Scott Harper: Right. When you have emotion involved with a concept, it absolutely makes it stickier.

Todd Cherches: Right. Which is more emotional, a spreadsheet or a picture of faces and human feelings? So, that’s a great point.

Pam Harper: Right. I think that one of the things we’re seeing is some of that theory coming out in TEd talks, for instance, you see a lot more TED talks where there are pictures, photos and very emotionally compelling images. So that would go to what you’re saying, right?

Todd Cherches: Yeah. A couple of examples. One, the classic is Steve Jobs, when he introduced the iPod. He held up this little device. He could have said, “This device holds five gigabytes of data,” and anyone who’s not a technology person would be like, who cares? But instead, he said, “This little device will hold a thousand songs in your pocket.” So if you could say, wow, my entire CD collection can fit on that little device. That’s amazing. That’s a lot more exciting, compelling, and emotionally engaging than the number of gigs of data that thing holds.

Pam Harper: So, when you can see it, then you can begin to do something with that image and start bringing it to life.

Todd Cherches: Exactly.

Pam Harper: We’re going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we’ll dig deeper with Todd Cherches, author of VisuaLeadership, on how leaders can put visual thinking to work, to build, understanding, and commitment. Stay with us.

Chris Curran: This is Growth Igniters Radio with Pam Harper and Scott Harper. We’re brought to you by Business Advancement Inc. And as always, we focus on enabling visionary C-suite leaders to accelerate momentum for game-changing innovation, transformation, and growth.

Chris Curran: Now, Pam, neuroscientists tell us that when we’re in crises or high-pressure situation like we are now, it’s natural for our brains to go back to tacit knowledge and tried and true ways of dealing with similar situations. But in uncertain times like these, this can really present a challenge to visionary leaders.

Pam Harper: That’s right. While relying on familiar solutions can work in a stable environment, it just doesn’t work when we’re in the uncharted territory of today, and the rules no longer apply. That’s where we come in as strategic growth advisors. Our clients have told us that we’ve helped them to gain clarity, frame their challenges so they can make new, more powerful decisions, and most importantly, take new actions that have led to game-changing results. You can learn more by reading our success stories and testimonials on businessadvance.com.

Pam Harper: Welcome back to Growth Igniters Radio with Pam Harper — that’s me — and Scott Harper. Scott and I are talking today with Todd Cherches, author of VisuaLeadership, about using visual thinking to create more powerful communication and connection. Todd, how can people find out more about you and your work?

Todd Cherches: Sure. My brand new website is actually launching next week, although it’s live now. So if you went to it first, now you’d be one of the first to ever see it. And it’s literally www.toddcherches.com. You’ll be the first to see it. Connect with me on LinkedIn; I live on LinkedIn. So that’s the best way for you to know me and for me to know you and for us to start a conversation.

Pam Harper: Sounds good. And you can see more and see that link by visiting growthignitersradio.com, episode 178.

So, Todd, tell us briefly about the four ways to think visually that you describe in your book.

Todd Cherches: Sure. I break it down to four ways, because a lot of times, when I ask people in workshops and seminars, what does visual thinking mean to you, in a sentence, it’s thinking in pictures. But there’s a lot of different ways to do that. It’s thinking and communicating visually. There are four ways.

Todd Cherches: The four ways are visual imagery and drawing — that’s number one. The second is using mental models and frameworks. The third is using metaphor and analogy. And the fourth is using storytelling, and as an extra bonus, you get bonus points if you also incorporate humor; I put those in as a pair.

Pam Harper: Okay. Can you tell us a little bit about why each one works?

Todd Cherches: Sure. Visual imagery and drawing, so it’s the power of pictures. The picture speaks a thousand words. There’s a Chinese saying that hearing something a thousand times is not as good as seeing it once. And even Napoleon said a good sketch is better than a long speech.

Pam Harper: Okay, so that’s the traditional way that we’ve been talking about so far, right?

Todd Cherches: Exactly. So it’s visual imagery and drawing. So as a leader, let’s make it real. Can you get up at a flip chart or a whiteboard and sketch something out? Can you use mental models and frameworks? Can you sketch out the process diagram? A classic example of this right now is flattening the curve. That expression is part of everyday life now. We never heard of it until three months ago. So if you think about it, without knowing anything about viruses or anything about statistics, if you visualize in your mind’s eye that flattens the curve diagram that shows that if we take protective measures, if we wear masks and socially distance, we will spread things out, so we will not overwhelm the healthcare system.

Pam Harper: Okay. So I’m envisioning, as you’re talking about this, that graph with the curve, and that’s great. So that is an example of pictures, right?

Todd Cherches: Yeah. What’s great is I painted that picture with words, without physically showing it to you. So sometimes people say, how do you do this remotely? You’re on radio. What’s the difference between radio and television. With television, you would be able to hold that up or put it on the screen. We need to be able to communicate very often just auditory. So can you visually represent ideas through the spoken word? That’s one of the challenges that leaders face.

Todd Cherches: Use of metaphor and analogy. Can you use a metaphor or analogy? What’s the purpose of metaphors and analogies? They make the complex simple, the abstract concrete, the unfamiliar familiar, the invisible visible.

Pam Harper: So those are the stories that we tell, right?

Scott Harper: Well, even just a metaphor. This COVID crisis is like being hit with a tsunami of viruses that are extra sticky.

Todd Cherches: Yeah. Andrew Cuomo used that in one of his visuals with one of his speeches, they show the picture of a tsunami overlaid on the graph saying, “If we do not stop this now, we are going to drown.”

Todd Cherches: So that’s a great example that Scott just gave. And another one that Dr. Fauci uses all the time is he said, “It’s not like flipping a light switch. It’s more like turning a dimmer.” So what’s the difference between the… It would be nice if we said, all right, COVID ends on August 1st, and we can just flip the switch and go back to business. But it’s not, it’s more like a dimmer. We’re going to turn it up and open things up. But you know what, we may have to dial it back. And that’s exactly what’s happening right now.

Pam Harper: Exactly.

Todd Cherches: So if you’ve seen the light switch or a dimmer, that metaphor is perfect, in terms of visual imagery and using it, but doing it through the spoken language. So I’m sure you can picture that in your mind’s eye.

Pam Harper: Right. And then the process diagram, a lot of us use those to talk about how a process works. And then the fourth one was…

Todd Cherches: …A use of storytelling and humor. So, if you said if a boss… Say you hire a new person, and you could say, “Do this and don’t do this.” But if instead of saying that, if you say, “When I had your job, listen to what happened to me, this is the worst mistake I’ve ever made.” Which will resonate more? Which will be more powerful? Not only that, it shows your vulnerability, your humanity, your authenticity, your credibility as a leader, through storytelling.

For instance, I was doing a workshop, the Art of Storytelling, for a group of 20 CEOs. One the CEO says, “I hate storytelling. I’m a terrible storyteller.” So I said, “Well, why do you say that?” And he went on to tell this great story about why he was so bad at storytelling. So we all looked at each other. I’m like, “Do I have to say it? Or are you going to say that?” And they said to him, “You’re amazing. That was a great story.”

Todd Cherches: So a lot of times, we put our own limitations. It’s like with drawing, so you don’t have to be an artist to get up with a flip chart. If you could do a stick figure, you could sketch something out. So one of the examples I use is, if you ask a group of first graders, how many of you could draw, how many raise their hand? All of them.

Scott Harper: All of them.

Todd Cherches: You ask a group of business professionals, and very few will raise their hand. So have we lost our ability over the years or our confidence? So if we just say, it’s the power of the pen. If I can get up and command the room by sketching something out, I could communicate this idea visually, so that people can see what I’m saying.

Scott Harper: Okay — like Pictionary. Now, Todd, you talk about these different visual tools. Are there some visuals that are better suited for a particular purpose, when we’re trying to get something across in others? How do we pick which tool is the right one for us?

Todd Cherches: Yeah. Visual thinking and the visual tools I just mentioned — they are tools like any tool in your toolkit, and there’s no one size fits all tool for any situation. So we need to think about what’s the content, who’s the audience, and what’s the purpose. That will determine, is it a story, is it… Sometimes you just need an Excel spreadsheet that shows all the data. Other times, you need a big picture, an inspirational story. Other times you need a diagram or something. So I always talk about the classic, who, what, when, where, why, and together, they determine the how. So, if you think about who am I talking to, what’s this about, when and where is this taking place, and why am I having this conversation, then that will determine what’s the best how that will get your message across.

Pam Harper: That’s true. Some of the best examples I can think of are stories when CEOs are introducing where we’ve been, where we’re going, where are we doing it, why are we doing it? And the story comes out. And yet at other times, the process of how we’re going to get there is more appropriate. I agree with you completely. You have to understand what you’re trying to accomplish with any story.

Pam Harper: We’re going to talk more about that in just a moment, but first we’re going to take another quick break. And then when we come back, we’ll speak more with Todd Cherches, author of VisuaLeadership, about three immediately useful tips for CEOs and other leaders to strengthen their ability to visually think. Stay with us.

Scott Harper: You’re listening to Growth Igniters Radio with Pam Harper and Scott Harper, brought to you by Business Advancement Incorporated, on the web at www.businessadvance.com.

Scott Harper: Pam, as we’ve been speaking with Todd Cherches about the power of visual thinking, I’ve found it’s particularly useful for helping us pick up on specific emerging trends.

Pam Harper: In fact, The more vividly you can see the picture of where you want to go, the more likely that you and others will be able to separate signals of real opportunity from noise. We had a conversation about this with professor Rita McGrath, based upon her best-selling book “Seeing Around Corners.

Scott Harper: To listen to this conversation go to Growth Igniters Radio.com, select episode 178, and click the link in the “Resources” section.

Pam Harper: Welcome back to Growth Igniters Radio with Pam Harper and Scott Harper. Over the last two segments, Scott and I have been talking to Todd Cherches, author of the book VisuaLeadership, about how top leaders can use visual thinking to build more powerful communication and connection.

Pam Harper: Todd, remind us how people can find out more about you and VisuaLeadership and your book.

Todd Cherches: Sure. The best way to find me is to go to my brand new website that we’ll be launching next week, but it’s already live. So it’s www.toddcherches.com. The second best way to reach me is just to go to LinkedIn. Luckily, I’m the only one with my name on there, so I’m easy to find. And just link in with me. That way, I’ll know who you are and we’ll connect. Oh, by the way, when you’re on my website, feel free to sign up for my newsletter and also to download my list of my top 52 book recommendations on how to be a more effective visual leader. So that’s a bonus incentive for signing up. And in terms of my book, available wherever books are sold, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, other independents, and unfortunately not in real book stores yet. That was one of my fantasies was to stand, the Barnes & Noble next to my book and say, “Hey, have you read this one?” Unfortunately, that’s not going to happen for a while.

Pam Harper: Thanks for making it clear how we can get to you. And of course, you can visit growthignitersradio.com, episode 178. We have a resource page, filled with all kinds of links relevant to this episode, including Todd’s website and also a link to the book.

Pam Harper: Now we’re at the part of our podcast where we discuss the practical ways to bring the ideas we’ve been discussing to life. So Todd, let’s take one idea at a time; what’s the first tip?

Todd Cherches: Tip number one is to start thinking more visually. So, use visualization techniques, many of them that are in my book, but others that are out there — napkin sketching, mind mapping, storyboarding. If you’re delivering a presentation, storyboard it as if you are mapping out a movie, using process diagrams to visually conceptualize your ideas. Find the way to get it out of your head and onto paper, so that you can physically show it to someone.

Todd Cherches: The first two methods I talked about, using imagery, drawing, and mental models and frameworks, those are usually taken in through the physical eye. The last two, the metaphor and the storytelling, tend to be taken into the ear. When you combine the auditory and the visual, it’s even more powerful.

Todd Cherches: And just to wrap up that first tip, there’s a quote by the French novelist, Marcel Proust, who wrote that “The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands, but in seeing with new eyes.” And I think that’s the best thing that leaders can do, is just look at their world through new eyes, see things that you didn’t notice before, and watch that light bulb go off. And you’ll see solutions emerge that you hadn’t thought of before.

Pam Harper: That’s great. And of course, you want to get that idea out onto the napkin as soon as possible. Don’t delay.

Scott Harper: And you want to be sure that you’re not just looking, but you’re seeing. You use both words. They have different meanings.

Todd Cherches: Yes. Yes. As Yogi Berra said, “you can observe a lot from watching.”

Pam Harper: Yes. Let’s go on to tip two.

Todd Cherches: Sure. Tip two is, once you’ve started thinking more visually, the next step is to work on practicing, to communicate more visually. It’s one thing to formulate your vision. It’s another thing to get it out of your head and into the heads of others so that they can say, “I see what you’re saying.”

Using the techniques we’re talking about, working on… All of these are developable skills. While some people have more charisma and seem more natural, no one’s really a natural at this. If you Google Steve Jobs’ very first interview, he literally, actually said, and I quote, “I’m going to throw up.” They had him all strapped in with the headset and everything and the mic, and he literally was in a panic. And look at what he became. So we all can get better.

Todd Cherches: So that’s what I would say. Step one was thinking more visually. Step two is communicating more visually. Develop your storytelling skills, your use of metaphor. One of the most important things a leader can do is to simplify complexity so that people can understand it, because the world is messy and complex. My first TEDx talk was called “The Power of Visual Thinking.” My second one, which I was supposed to do last month, which was canceled due to COVID. Hopefully, it will be rescheduled. It was called “The Magic of Mental Models.” And that’s all about how can we take the messiness and complexity of life, think in… we talk about thinking outside the box, think inside the box, so we could see it more clearly, and then we could take it outside the box and implement those new solutions.

Scott Harper: That’s really good, Todd. The third tip?

Todd Cherches: The third tip is to do as much reading as possible. As I mentioned before, I’m an obsessive reader, but not just reading, but watching. Read my book, watch my TED talk, but read as many books as you can, watch as many TED talks as you can. In my book, and also if you download from my website my list of resources, I didn’t come up with this out of thin air. Part of it was the fact that I was an English literature major with a concentration in Shakespeare and poetry, so that gave me my background in storytelling from a young age. Then my years in the TV industry formulated my visual thinking. But again, I wasn’t born with this. I developed it. So anyone here could learn, any CEO could learn to be a more visual thinker. So, I would say read as much as possible, watch as much as possible, add these tools, tips, and techniques to your toolkit, and you’ll be a more effective visual leader, going forward.

Pam Harper: I like that. And I think that it’s important to also think about when you’re moved by something and ask “why is it moving? Why does it hit you well? Why did that particular visual work for me?” And so what you’re saying, Todd, is true. It takes a while, but being an observer of it makes it easier over time.

Todd Cherches: Right. think about Martin Luther King, Jr.’s “I have a dream speech.” He didn’t say, I have an Excel spreadsheet. He didn’t say, I have a PowerPoint deck to walk you through. What he did was he painted a picture of an idealized future state. He did it with words, with poetic language, alliteration, rhyme, rhythm, and visual imagery. That’s probably the classic. I watch it every Martin Luther King Day, both auditory… sometimes I just listen to it. Sometimes I watch it. Sometimes I do both. And sometimes I read it. That’s a masterclass. So if you just watch that and say, what’s one or two techniques I could take from this that I can incorporate into my repertoire, and you’ll be a more powerful visual communicator and thinker, literally overnight.

Pam Harper: Yes. So here we are at the end of our episode. Are there some final thoughts you can leave us with about VisuaLeadership?

Todd Cherches: Yeah. This was one that kind of resonated with me recently. Again, having written my book and reflecting on it. On the cover of the book, there’s an eye, and it’s a rainbow-colored eye. Originally, it was a blue eye because my company is called BigBlueGumball. So I wanted it to kind of match, but the blue eye didn’t represent the diversity in the way that rainbow eye did. So we came up with a rainbow color of the eye that represents diversity in all its forms, as well as representing creativity and innovation. So that’s one thing, is to look at the eye as representing diversity and innovation.

Todd Cherches: The second concept is we need to flip the eye. When I wrote the book, and my primary way of thinking about VisuaLeadership was about how do I formulate my vision and strategically execute it and get my vision out there into the world, so it becomes a reality. I think it’s equally important, especially in this day and age, to flip the eye around, in the spirit of reflection and introspection and connection, another three-word rhyme. Looking backward, looking inward, and looking forward, we need to try to see things from other people’s point of view. We need to see them through their lens, through their glasses, with empathy and compassion, so that we can collaborate with them, to help others turn their vision into reality.

So as a leader, it’s not just about us and our vision, but it’s about helping as many people as possible turn their visions into reality by getting them out there into the world.

Pam Harper: Todd, thanks so much for being our guest on Growth Igniters Radio.

Todd Cherches: Pam and Scott, this was such a pleasure. I appreciate it.

Scott Harper: Thanks, Todd. And thanks to you out there for listening to Growth Igniters Radio with Pam Harper and Scott Harper. To check out resources related to today’s conversation, get Todd’s 50 books to learn about visual thinking, share on social media, read his bio and the episode transcript, go to growthignitersradio.com and select episode 178.

Pam Harper: Until next time, this is Pam Harper…

Scott Harper: And Scott Harper…

Pam Harper: Wishing you continued success and leaving you with this question to consider:

Scott Harper: What sorts of visual thinking are most appropriate for bringing our vision and the path forward into a more vivid focus for all of our stakeholders?