Leading With the Magic of Ethical Influence – with Mark Levy

Pam Harper(00:01): Our guest today shares why the unvarnished truth can be a powerful differentiator for your company. Join us as we discuss “Leading With the Magic of Ethical Influence,” episode 194 of Growth Igniters Radio with Pam Harper and Scott Harper.

Chris Curran(00:25): This episode is brought to you by Business Advancement Incorporated, enabling successful leaders and companies to accelerate to their next level of success. On the web at businessadvance.com, and now, here's Pam and Scott.

Pam Harper(00:42): Thanks, Chris. I'm Pam Harper, Founding Partner and CEO of Business Advancement Incorporated. And sitting right across from me as always is my business partner and husband, Scott Harper. Hi, Scott.

Scott Harper(00:54): Hi, Pam. It's great to join you again for another episode of Growth Igniters Radio, and as always, our purpose is to spark new insights, inspiration and immediately useful ideas to help visionary leaders accelerate themselves — and their companies, of course — to their next level of game-changing innovation, transformation and growth.

Now, Pam, as we're starting to deal with the emerging issues of coming out of the global crisis of the pandemic — dealing with all of its aftermath — one of the things that's becoming increasingly clear in so many ways is that “normal” will never be the same. It’s not normal any more. That includes how we influence our markets, employees and all of our other stakeholders.

Pam Harper(01:38): That's right. Sometimes it can seem like magic when social media influencers and other prominent people seem to coincidentally promote a company, services, and products. Whether it's done ethically or not starts with top leadership — the CEO, C-suites, and corporate directors. And there are strong implications for top and bottom-line results, both in the short-term and in the long-term.

Scott Harper(02:03): Yes, that’s right.

Pam Harper(02:04): That's why we're glad to be speaking today with Mark Levy, a Differentiation Expert who's worked with a wide range of corporations, brands, thought leaders, political campaigns, entertainment, products, services, books and speeches. Mark's done a lot. Mark is also a speaker, podcaster and author who's written five books, including Accidental Genius: Using Writing to Generate Your Best Ideas, Insight, and Content. This is a book I love, and we'll talk about that later. He's worked with and spoken to leaders, strategists and teams in large organizations, including Adobe, Amazon, American Express and many more.

Pam Harper(02:45): Along with his work as a Differentiation Consultant, Mark is a magician who co-created the highly rated show Chamber Magic, which has played in Manhattan for 21 years. With that, we're going to go right over to the conversation. Mark, welcome to Growth Igniters Radio.

Mark Levy(03:03): Thank you so much for having me. I'm grateful.

Pam Harper(03:05): You have such an interesting background, including being a performing magician. Let's put it together. How does your background with magic connect with creating what you call “big, sexy ideas” and differentiation for business?

Mark Levy(03:23): Well, here’s the interesting thing... I'm this Differentiation Expert, right? I differentiate businesses, brands, thought leaders and other things. And when you're a magician, you tend to look at things from a more elevated viewpoint, a more kind of colorful viewpoint. So when I'm differentiating an organization, or a person, or a book or something like that, I tend not to just want to get on first base with it. We try to go for something much, much bigger, and that goes with my background as a magician, because a magician's job is to create miracles. So I tend to look at people's businesses or products or whatever it is they're trying to produce, and then it's the idea of, "What miracle can we create here?," something far beyond the pale.

Pam Harper(04:15): What would be an example of a miracle? I mean, this sounds exciting; there is something here. We have to get to it. What would be an example?

Mark Levy(04:24): Well, so for instance, I've dealt with people like Simon Sinek of “Start with Why” fame, years ago. I was working with Simon, and that's when he came up with Start with Why and the Golden Circle and all those things, and those kinds of ideas have rightfully shaped the world's conversation. I would say that that's a bit of a miracle, but I-

Pam Harper(04:47): That's a miracle, yes.

Mark Levy(04:47): Right. You're talking about my magic background and the show I co-created, Chamber Magic; so that show ahs played in Manhattan 21 years. When we started out, we had no money to advertise, and now on TripAdvisor, it's rated higher than even Hamilton, and there's a celebratory Chamber Magic Day in Manhattan by order of the Mayor of New York City. So it's things like that with people's products and services.

Mark Levy(05:24): It's a design parameter. It’s, "How do we make this as big as possible, and especially, how do we get people talking about this idea even when the person who espoused it initially is not around?" That's key. The idea has to be so good that it impresses important strangers, and important strangers want to discuss it even when you're not around. So to me, that's miracle class stuff.

Scott Harper(05:54): Okay. So, Mark, one of the things that you talk about is what you call “the magic of ethical influence.” Ethical influence… so why should top leaders care about that? And what is it?

Mark Levy(06:06): I'll tell you how I got to this. What I'm going to teach you is stuff that I've taught C-level people throughout the world. So years ago, I came up with this concept because I was in the world of sales and I was teaching a certain sales technique, like a named brand sales strategy thing. And when I was teaching it — I was a kid; I was in my 20's —it just seemed so artificial. When I was teaching it, it's like here is where they're allowed to object; Here are the objections that they can use if they don't ...

Pam Harper(06:47): That's right. It's not time to object yet, right?

Mark Levy(06:49): Right, exactly. “Hold your objection. You can't object yet.” There seemed to be so much artificiality and so much boxing people into a corner and so much manipulation, even though they wouldn't necessarily have called it manipulation, that I just said to myself, "I never want to be caught using a strategy to persuade people that I would be ashamed of using." So if they caught me, I would be embarrased... Right? Magician, by the way — right?

Mark Levy(07:21): It's like I wouldn't want them to say, "Oh, I know what you're doing to me right now." Like that would be a nightmare to me. So, I said, "My career is predicated on persuasion, butI am only going to use ethical persuasion strategies."

Mark Levy(07:37): These are strategies that are so fair and open, that the person who you're trying to persuade as you're trying to persuade them, if they caught you, they would applaud you and what it is that you're using. Because these are all strategies about how to make your message clear so people can clearly see it, how to show them the pros and cons so they can make a fair decision and so forth. I never want to push people into being influenced. I want them to arrive there on their own.

Pam Harper(08:15): Okay, so this takes us to our question here about why top leadership should care. On the one hand, someone could say, “well, you were teaching salespeople,” but we believe, and I think you would too, but maybe not, that it starts at the top. How sales approaches are developed, or approaches to communicating with anybody or influencing anybody, starts with top leadership. What do you think?

Mark Levy(08:46): Absolutely. Well, the top leader is the igniter of the culture. I mean, there's a lot of people, of course, who contribute to the culture in an organization. I'm not saying not, but the C-level people, if they don't walk the talk, there's going to be a problem.

Pam Harper(08:59): Yes. Just going into this before the break — what in a nutshell — how can the unvarnished truth help your company dominate a market? You say this into your keynote, and I'm intrigued by your subtitle.

Mark Levy(09:13): Well, because especially today, when everyone can find out everything that there is to know about you, it is essential that you start the conversation. I'll talk about it after the next break, but it's the idea of you really need to let everyone know how you make decisions, what's important to you, why the work is the work that you're doing and not other work. And everyone throughout the organization needs to be that way. It not only creates a dynamic, exuberant culture, but it's also very persuasive to the marketplace when they see a company just being as honest and open and as fair as they possibly can.

Pam Harper(09:53): Yes, and that starts with top leadership. We're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we'll talk more with Mark Levy about the magic of leading with ethical influence. Stay with us…

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Pam Harper(11:22): Welcome back to Growth Igniters Radio with Pam Harper — that's me — and Scott Harper. Today, Scott and I are speaking with differentiation expert Mark Levy, author of the book, Accidental Genius, about leading with the magic of ethical influence. Mark, tell us how people can find out more about you and your work.

Mark Levy(11:43): Oh, sure. You can visit my website, which is Levyinnovation.com. That's L-E-V-Y innovation, with no S at the end. I'm only capable of one innovation. [laughter]

Pam Harper(11:57): You can also find more information and links for this episode by going to growthignitersradio.com, episode 194 and scroll down to Resources. Before the break, we were talking about the importance of leadership in terms of ethical influence and the implications for it. One of the things that goes into that, I think, is a certain amount of thinking differently. So, a lot of times, people get stuck in status quo thinking about a lot of things, especially having to do with influencing. What do you think?

Mark Levy(12:40): Well, yes, but before I answer that question — you said something interesting that I just wrote down. You said something about “the implications of influence” ...

Mark Levy(12:49): I forget exactly the words, but when you used the word, “implication,” it reminded me one of my clients, who was the head of thought leadership of a major consulting firm — like one of the big, big consulting firms — and I asked him, "What is thought leadership exactly?," and he said, "Mark, all it is, is what's happening in the world, and what are the implications for the world and for someone's business."

Pam Harper(13:14): That’s right.

Mark Levy(13:15): And he said, "That's what thought leadership is all day long — implications, implications, implications." So you reminded me of that, so thank you.

Pam Harper(13:22): Well, you're very welcome, and that's what we like to do.

Here's the question though, which is: we get sucked in oftentimes into status-quo thinking about ethical influence. I've heard people talk about it a certain way, and you see it differently; but what fuels that status quo attachment?

Mark Levy(13:46): Well, what fuels the status quo thinking in an organization is that people are often kind of locked down in their own job or in their own project with a project team, so there becomes a certain way of looking at things and there becomes ... There's not only the corporate culture, but there's a bunch of mini cultures happening within the organization, and people understandably ...

Mark Levy(14:17): Like this is not that anyone's broken. It's understandable that people tend to be locked into certain ways of seeing things, so it is essential if you want to remain fresh at your job, if you want to be innovative at your job, that you need to break free at times from status-quo thinking and go to very different places. That's the only way you're going to be able to improve, you're going to be able to do your work faster, better or so on. It's by breaking free.

Pam Harper(14:50): Mark, we've been talking before the break about how leadership really impacts every aspect of communicating and marketing, especially with customers and helping people to understand how our company is different. There's a certain leadership that goes into having people think about how they approach others about their product or service. Do you see that too?

Mark Levy(15:22): Yes. I see that the C-level people — they need to be talking about the products and services right from the get-go. You need to create products and services that have stories within them, that people are excited to talk about, that are memorable to talk about, that people want to share with one another. So it's super important that the story or the marketing of something becomes part of the design process. So in the creation of the products and services, like people know what it's all about and they're talking about it on their own. I often find that sometimes when the story is not thought about ahead of time, that creates all kinds of calcification of ideas like in certain ways that weren't intended, if that makes sense, right?

Pam Harper(16:20): Yes, it does, and in fact, I think one of the things we're seeing is how leaders are having a real impact on how they're communicating with employees about how we're going to be different given the pandemic situation, the post-pandemic world that we live in, and how we got through it. We've interviewed CEOs who've said, "Well, we had a real challenge, and it was a silver lining for us to come across to our customers in our community in new ways," and it influenced people in terms of thinking about that company's products and services, and it was a different kind of thinking.

Scott Harper(17:01): Yes. And the thing is though, as leaders are starting to come out and think, "Hey, we have to operate differently. Maybe we want to present our products and services in a different way," it's going to take time for the rest of the organization to catch up. So, how can leaders help not only themselves, but the rest of the organization think differently about how they're going about what they're doing, how they're influencing so that they can lead with more transparency, they can be more open, more authentic, and create a higher impact with their stakeholders?

Mark Levy(17:36): Well, I find that there need to be sessions where leaders and leadership teams and their people get together and they have discussions on what things are and where things are going, and what I'm saying right now may sound very ordinary. It's like, "Okay, maybe you should edit that out." It's like he didn't say anything there, but what it is, it does not happen in organizations. Organizations are often so forward-looking in what they're doing, like, "How do we implement? How do we implement?"

Mark Levy(18:11): "What's the strategy down there?" They're looking forward, that everyone is not really on base ... Like they're not in the same place, so it's very important that leaders and other people in the organization get together and have discussions and talk about, "Okay. This thing that we created, what was it that we were trying to create? What is it that we think we've created now?"

Mark Levy(18:37): "Where do we think it's going? How is the public, how is the marketplace talking about it? What can the marketplace do from using this product or service or whatever it is that we came up with, that they couldn't do before using it?" and so forth. They need to answer very foundational, fundamental questions because sometimes we just get off track for the best possible reason. Like we don't do it on purpose, but it's those kinds of simple, clarifying conversations need to happen periodically between leaders and employees.

Scott Harper(19:12): Now, Mark, what you're doing is making the distinction between strategic thinking and strategic conversations — which sometimes get buried underneath the operational drive — and executional conversations. “Let's get this thing out there and going — and move it, move it, move it.” Strategy has to come first. Then, everybody's clear, everybody can be on the same page, and you have a much, much better process.

Mark Levy(19:38): Beautifully put. And can I say, if you don't have these conversations, and I've seen it happen in organizations, if you don't have these conversations, the rank and file then gets embarrassed, that they don't understand what the very core of their work is and what it's about. I mean, I've interviewed people who like, "I'm doing my work and I'm getting promoted, but I don't really know what it is that I'm trying to do." When I asked them, "Oh, explain to me what this product is, or what this service is and what's its point in the customer's life?," like what's it supposed to do for them and so forth, and they can't really do it, and they're embarrassed, so you as a leader need to be empathetic to the team and kind of at times sit there and say, "Okay, let's go over fundamentals." Like, "What is this thing and how is it evolved?" By the way, a very quick point here, having to do with my differentiation work, differentiation consultant.

Mark Levy(20:43): Invariably, when I'm working with someone on their company's differentiation or on their personal brand differentiation, one of the first questions, if not, the first question I ask is a foundational question about the entire work itself.

I'll give you a perfect example. I was coaching the former CEO of Popeyes Louisiana Kitchen, the one who turned them around, and I was coaching her on writing her book. That's what she hired me to do, and the very first question I asked her, I said, "So you're writing a book on leadership, right?," and she said, "Yeah," and I said, "What is leadership?," and she looked at me, which is understandable and I said, "Because I'm sitting here in my house by myself with my two cats and my dog, I think I have a different idea about what leadership is than you have with 2,700 people under you and all these resources and whatnot, so tell me what you see as leadership and when is leadership worked and when hasn't it work, and when did you first understand the concept of leadership, and what do you think leadership is, and what do you think other people think leadership is and so forth?" It's starting from the foundation so that we don't keep rolling the ball forward and we're all unclear, that it's like a Tower of Babel, where we're all doing different things and we think we're doing the same thing.

Pam Harper(22:08): That's right, and so the unvarnished truth is that when people come together and they can actually present a clear story about, "Why what we're promoting is so amazing," it's because of how we put it together and how we lead each other and how we impact each other. That's at the heart of all of that.

Mark Levy(22:29): Well, that's right. The clear story is a strategic decision.

Pam Harper(22:32): Right. Now we're going to stop for a moment right there and go to a second break. When we come back, we'll talk more with differentiation expert Mark Levy, author of Accidental Genius, about practical, immediately useful ideas for leading with ethical influence.

Scott Harper(22:55): You are listening to Growth Igniters Radio with Pam Harper and Scott Harper, brought to you by Business Advancement Incorporated. We're on the web at businessadvance.com. Does this sound like you, you're a visionary, CEO or C-suite leader who wants your company to take full advantage of emerging opportunities in a world that's changing faster than ever before?

Pam Harper(23:18): At the same time, you're facing many other strategic issues that are equally as critical. As one CEO asked me, "Pam, what's the key to moving even faster when everything is important and urgent?" I told him, "One thing you can do is confirm your perspectives about whether what should be happening to achieve your objectives really is happening."

Scott Harper(23:41): Yes, with so much going on, a lot of times, there can be surprises.

Pam Harper(23:44): That's why we developed our free Perspective Builder, “Five Questions to Ask When You Need to Move Even Faster.” Taking the 10 minutes to go through this, even on your own, can spark new insights that can enable you to begin discovering where your energy and resources could have the most positive impact.

Scott Harper(24:04): You can get this resource free on request. Go today to growthignitersradio.com, select episode 194 and click on the link in “Resources.” And to learn more about our success stories, go to businessadvance.com/Client-Results.

Pam Harper(24:27): Welcome back to Growth Igniters Radio with Pam Harper and Scott Harper. Over the last two segments, Scott and I have been speaking with Differentiation Expert, Mark Levy, author of Accidental Genius, about the magic of leading with ethical influence. Mark, remind us how people can find out more about you and your work.

Mark Levy(24:46): Sure. My website is levyinnovation.com. You can find all my contact information there.

Pam Harper(24:56): Okay, and if they want to get a copy of your book, Accidental Genius, is there a link to that too?

Mark Levy(25:02): Oh, yeah. It's there. It's everywhere. It's on Amazon and places like that. It's all over the place.

Pam Harper(25:07): Okay. All right. Of course, you can find out more and get related links to this episode by going to growthignitersradio.com, episode 194 and scroll down under Resources. We are now at the point of our episode where we talk about immediately useful ideas. In this case, let's talk about expanding your mind.

Pam Harper(25:32): That's something that you talk a lot about in your book, Accidental Genius. I keep talking about this because this is a book, — and you didn't know that I was going to plug it like this, right? In fact, I did not tell you — but this is a book that helped me in developing my newest keynote, and it opened my mind about thinking differently. So now let's talk about expanding the mind.

Mark Levy(25:59): Sure. Well, if they're trying to solve a problem unlike a problem that they solved before, or they want to come up with a new idea for something, so I like to think in extremes. and so one thing I have people do is this problem situation that they're thinking of, that they should write down everything obvious about the situation, things that are as simple as you could possibly get. Just start writing down fact after fact after fact or story after story after story, just obvious stuff, because often, one of the things that keeps us constricted and not coming up with new ideas is that we think that the ideas we come up with need to be brilliant instantly, and that's not the way the human mind works, so the first thing, if you start listing obvious things, it relaxes you and interesting ideas often come up from that.

Pam Harper(26:51): Sort of like magic, right?

Mark Levy(26:54): That's right, and I said I like to think from extremes —so what's the extreme to what's obvious? What's surprising? Another thing I have people do is to look at the exact same situation and write down everything that they would find surprising or that the marketplace would find surprising or whoever, ideas, stories, insights, like that kind of thing, so obvious and surprising or safe and dangerous, those would be two different ... By the way, again, if this sounds like a joke, I've led brainstorms on Madison Avenue with Mad Men, where they've come up with the idea for a big campaign for a project by saying, "Hey, what's everything dangerous about this project?" It doesn't mean we want to do something dangerous, but again, it frees up the mind because they have to go somewhere different.

Pam Harper(27:45): That's the thing that I really like, is that when you do allow your mind to go in these new places, you never know what you're going to find, but it always leads to someplace good.

Mark Levy(27:56): You really do in your ideation, in your problem solving, in your innovation. You really have to reach. You have to train yourself to reach much further than you probably commonly are for new ideas. You have to be really tolerant of not knowing things and of doing bad work. At least during the brainstorm, you can't have these demands of excellence on you while you're creating the whole time, because you're never going to create anything interesting that way.

Scott Harper(28:25): Yes. What's building on that? What's the second immediately useful idea for opening up our minds and getting to new stuff, getting past the status quo?

Mark Levy(28:35): Well, one thing which Pam had talked about because of Accidental Genius — my go-to tool, my all-time favorite tool I've ever learned for the world of business or anything is the idea of “free-writing,” which is what I wrote the book, Accidental Genius, about. Free-writing essentially is free from the normal rules of writing. The normal rules of writing say that your writing needs to be interesting, it needs to be coherent, it has to entertain other people, it's got ... It's all about the other and about perfection. Free-writing is not like that.

Mark Levy(29:12): It's writing that you use for yourself to watch yourself think, so it's writing, let's say for 10 minutes at a time without stopping, going as quickly as you can so you bypass your internal editor and new ideas just cascade out of your head. That's it in a nutshell, but this is a technique. I've taught this technique to a lot of people and it's transformed people's lives. They were able to approach problems that they couldn't approach before, they found opportunities that they couldn't find before, and they also created content and things like that that they used to promote, that they've told me they would never have reached any other way, and it's all because the internal editor was shunted off to the side temporarily so they can get to the most interesting stuff.

Scott Harper(30:02): Okay. Now, when you're free-writing, is it important that you do it by hand? Can you type it? Could you dictate it?

Mark Levy(30:10): That's the, actually the most asked question of me of free-writing of all questions. Like 50 to one, that's the most ... I find that interesting.

Scott Harper(30:19): Okay, so I'm obvious. What can I say?

Mark Levy(30:22): No, no. It's not obvious. It's like you've tapped into the zeitgeist, man. That's it. You tapped into the one. Everyone wants to know.

Mark Levy(30:31): When you’re free-writing, first, I'd experiment with either way. I tend to write directly into my computer because even though it's free-writing is writing for myself, to watch myself think, after I do it a bunch of times, I will sometimes pull out ideas and sections from my free-writing that I'll use for public writing, and because I've written in the computer, it makes it easier for me to do that, but that said, I know many people who prefer the handwriting. They just like the tactile sensation of writing onto the paper, so experiment but know that it's important that you're essentially using this to watch yourself think it's not public writing, at least not initially.

Pam Harper(31:18): Okay. What's the final immediately useful idea for today about expanding your mind about influence and influencing?

Mark Levy(31:26): The final concept I would say, is that understanding creates appreciation. So, if people understand who you are and how you make decisions and why the work you do is important to you, and the same for your team and for your organization, and you get that stuff out there on your website and in speeches ... By the way, an example of this, just in case, like if you go to the Patagonia website, they do it amazingly. So many organizations do it amazingly.

In a speech or in writing, what this sounds like is this way. It's like, "Hi, I'm here to talk about X, Y and Z." Some business problem, right? "I'm here to talk about X, Y and Z, but before we speak about that, let me tell you why this work is so important to me," and then you go into how you started the work and how you got to do the work. I could talk about this for 10 hours, but it just means everything because people, again, when they understand you and if they appreciate what it is they're hearing, it creates appreciation, and now, they want to do more business with you or buy more from you because they trust you, and so they assume that what you're producing is exceptional because you're exceptional.

Pam Harper(32:50): It's really interesting because that really leads into, I think the whole idea of leading with the magic of ethical influence. You just put it in a nutshell, is why do you do what you do, if people can understand it? Any final thoughts you want to leave us? I've just built on it, but-

Mark Levy(33:12): Oh, yeah. Well, again, I could talk forever. Real quick, I'll tell you a super simple story, so everyone listening to this, this applies to you. I had a workman come to my house, who owned a generator company, and he found out what it was that I did for a living, differentiation, and he said, "Mind if I ask you a business question?," and I said, "Sure, go right ahead." He said, "I'm starting a new side business."

Mark Levy(33:41): "We're growing hops on my farm and we want to sell them to microbreweries and so forth." He said, "How do I differentiate?," and I said, "Why do you do the work? Why did you decide you have the successful generator company? Why do it?," and he said, "I have two daughters, young daughters, and even though we'd sell generators, we grew up as farmers, and I wanted my daughters to know that we were really farmers at heart." That's how the family started, "And I also did it so that I could spend time with my two young daughters and not just like on a computer, like not on a handheld unit, so it was to spend time with them."

Mark Levy(34:21): "That's why we developed these hops," and I said, "That's your differentiation. I want you to go to the microbreweries and I want you to say, 'We have this great hops and here's why we do it,' and then you tell them the story of it's to show your daughters that you're farmers, and this is proof so it stays in the family and it doesn't die, and this is to stay close to your daughters and just getting away from the computer and being out in the field with them and planting and growing something important." I said, "That's what you lead within your new business."

Scott Harper(34:52): That's great, Mark. It really exemplifies those principles that we talk about a lot, which is when you create an emotional connection, you create an intellectual conduit that makes people understand and take action.

Mark Levy(35:06): Beautifully said.

Pam Harper(35:07): Well, Mark, this has been a great conversation. We've gone all over the place, but I think that what we're talking about is so important and there's so much to it, so thanks for being our guest on Growth Igniters Radio.

Mark Levy(35:21): Thank you so much.

Scott Harper(35:23): Thanks, Mark, and thanks to you out there for listening to Growth Igniters Radio with Pam Harper and Scott Harper. To get show notes and resource links for this week's episode, go to growthignitersradio.com, select episode 194.

Pam Harper(35:37): Until next time. This is Pam Harper ...

Scott Harper(35:39): ... and Scott Harper ...

Pam Harper(35:39): ... wishing you continued success and leaving you with this question to discuss with your team.

Scott Harper(35:45): "What is one way that we can start leading our organization, starting today so that we can consistently promote ethical influence in every aspect of our business?"

Chris Curran(36:17): Growth Igniters and Growth Igniters Radio with Pam Harper and Scott Harper are registered service marks of Business Advancement Incorporated. All Growth Igniters Radio episodes are copyrighted productions of Business Advancement Incorporated, intended for the private use of our audience. Except as otherwise provided by copyright law, all other uses including copying, editing, redistribution and publication without prior written consent of Business Advancement Incorporated are prohibited. All rights reserved.